Question: Piracy % today?

Greenheart Games
#41

If you can afford the internet each month in order to Pirate, then you can afford a Game. Both are Luxury Items, you’re argument is invalid.

Also Day 1 Report… 250 Sales, 3,800 Known Pirate Versions; that is >90% Piracy

While other companies might believe that “Piracy is a good tool to get known by”, if that is your marketing strategy and giving people that Greenlight that it is alright at this early stage of your company; then when you have to legally fight a battle down the line involving piracy as an issue then you WILL lose regardless of the Legal Team you have.

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I would also point out, that for ANY new Company, because you do not have installed “Fan base” that will purchase what you sell regardless… then EVERY SINGLE SALE MATTERS. I fail to understand why people believe it is perfectly fine to Take a Movie, Music, Book or even Software Digitally because they can’t afford it … I mean would you also walk down the street see that someone have a Lamborghini and simply get in and drive away?

Why are Digital Goods any different from a Physical Goods?
Either way you are taking something that does not belong to you, so that you can have it.

In the past 30 years playing and developing video games, I have not ONCE found a game based on a recommendation from someone who Pirated the game… in-fact 99% of the time those I know who do Pirate games, don’t tell me they have even played a game until someone else tells me “Hey I played the Demo of this…” or “I bought this the other day”

The one and ONLY time I feel that piracy is justifiable is when it is not possible for you to get software any other way… and I don’t simply mean “Oh I am broke, there for I cannot buy” mentality… I mean because there are no retail options in your territory, or because has become Abandonware.

There is a Demo of this game that has been linked on every YouTube and Publication Website that has covered the game and very clearly available on the Main Page AND via Windows Store. That is more than most Triple A game gets nowadays…

Also anyone who believes that Piracy is a valid marketing tool is a :green_heart: idiot, who might want to apply for a job with Electronic Arts of UbiSoft as that was also their thinking in 2000… look where that got them!

As I said above, we’re talking about LUXURY ITEMS. Taking something simply because you want it frankly is piss poor morals, which you know what DOES HURT people; Don’t think it is just Independent Developers that this affects… Large AAA Studios have simply been shutdown because of this as well, it affects EVERYONE.

It is why Publishers WANT Always Online DRM as features of both the Xbox One and PlayStation 4, it is why most Publishers make half-arsed PC ports… Seriously why should they care about spending the time and money to bring PC gamers a title that won’t sell enough copies to cover even those small costs, because 75% and above playing that game are doing so with Bit Torrent Pirated versions?

You all cry “We don’t want DRM in our games!!” but then when there isn’t protection you simply half-inch it like there isn’t tomorrow and what is even worse is even though you might not personally pirate … you hear of your friends that do it and instead of explaining to them why it is a bad thing, you’re simply like “Meh! Whatever, it’s free advertising for that company”

Admit it to yourself that you know it’s :green_heart: justification for doing or allowing something to happen that you know full well is broth wrong and ILLEGAL

If the game isn’t worth paying for, then it isn’t worth playing. Simple as.
Still you know what those people aren’t the ones who actually piss me off… no I mean I mean explain to them why what they are doing is helping to destroy the games industry and often kill small developers dead; but no the main fuckers I hate in all of this are the ones who enable it.

The “Hackers” sticking to the man, by releasing cracked versions of games… or the 1 person who legitimately paid but then puts it up on a website for everyone else to play for free. Unless they think the game is so good they are willing to personally pay for each person who downloads that game, why do it?! Are they deliberately trying to sabotage the company?!

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While I do in a way commend Greenheart taking the stance of staying DRM Free for the “integrity” and how much “Gamers hate DRM” … honestly, I’m a Gamer - have been for probably longer than most here have been alive, and to me DRM is not a bad thing. It is merely a weapon against piracy, and like any weapon in the wrong hands well it will often hit the wrong target (I’m looking at EA, UbiSoft and Bethesda here)

But that doesn’t make it a bad thing, simply call it something else like Copy Protection (like it was in the 90s) and honestly no one will bat an eyelid about it unless you do it wrong.

It might not be something you want to do, but well I’m sure you have the figures in-front of you; personally such statistic sheets often make me disappointed in humanity … that so many feel they’re entitled for something for free that you put so much work and effort in to.

Decided myself a long time ago, market might be smaller overall on the Consoles; but honestly I’d rather have 1,000 legitimate fans than 3,000 who have no intention of supporting my work, and that I can value their feedback. It is a shame really as Windows, Mac, AmigaOS and Linux offer far more freedom in terms of platforms and ease of publishing, etc… but the number of honest people out there seems to shrink more and more each year.

#42

This is a good question, and one which is at the heart of the piracy debate. The reason they are different is because a physical item can only be sold to one person, a digital item can be copied infinitely and sold to many people for very little additional, or near-zero, cost per item. That is the key difference between a game and something physical, and the main reason that piracy is not theft.

Let me address your key argument:

Small games companies don’t make as much money as they could, because some people don’t pay for their games.

False. Piracy actually helps a small game become commercially successful. Games which are able to be pirated consistently outsell games which cannot. Look at a game such as Fez, which sold very small numbers on the Xbox 360, where the game could not really be pirated. When it came to PC and could be pirated, it sold a lot more.

Games on disc on the Xbox 360 can be pirated easily, and whenever an XBLA game (which cannot be pirated easily) is released on disc, sales massively increase.

It’s difficult to account for exactly what kind of an impact piracy has on sales, but I firmly believe that it is positive overall. The rule is, the more people pirating a game, the more people buying it.

I suspect the reason people do not tell you that they have pirated a game is because they wish to avoid a lecture.

“that is >90% Piracy”

A common fallacy is to look at the number of pirated copies of something and say:

“Well 1 million people pirated it, that must be 1 million lost sales! Piracy has cost us 1 million sales!!!”

False.

Typically; Some of the people that pirate a game buy it afterward. Some of the people that buy a game it pirate it afterward. A lot of the people who pirated it had no intention of ever buying it, regardless of whether they were able to pirate it or not.

It’s very difficult to quantify what effect piracy has, but there’s absolutely no evidence to show that a game which cannot be pirated sells better than one which can, in fact the opposite appears to be true. Sales of SimCity on PC were far below expectations, sales of Xbox Live Arcade games (which can be pirated but only a small number of people possess the necessary J-Mod Xbox) are often very poor when compared to their counterparts on Steam. Games which employ high levels of DRM do not sell any better than games which do not, and many of them fare much worse.

Consider this: Piracy has been around for as long as games have been around. In the 80s, all you needed to pirate games was a blank cassette, and a deck-to-deck tape recorder, which a lot of people had. In the days of tape games, around 90% of the games people owned were pirated in this way. Yet, it didn’t matter. The games industry exploded and made a lot of people millionaires.

They have always thought that piracy was a negative effect, they have been telling us forever that home taping is killing music, and recording films from the TV is killing the movie industry. It’s simply not the case. People will pay for stuff that they like, even if they can get it for free.

If everyone thought like you, there would be no games

False.

Piracy is not a new thing. People pirate games as much now as they always have done, yet there are still games. The new attitude is yours, that you should never pirate games. This is simply not the case.

Just because I think it’s ok for people to take games for free if they want to doesn’t mean that I don’t pay for the ones that I do like. I do buy some games. People who think like me do actually pay for some games.

If everyone thought like me (and most people do actually, your 90% stat proves that), there will continue to be games as there always have been, because people do pay when they can and they feel that they should.

Just look at something like the Humble Indie Bundle. You can pay what you like and get all of the games in the bundle. Some people do pay 1c, but the vast majority give a fair price for the games, and many people pay much more.

The Humble Bundle shows us that having something available for free (or one cent) does not mean that nobody will pay for it. In fact, it tends to make some people more generous, which offsets those who do not pay.

Piracy is the same idea. You can choose to pay or choose not. Enough people always choose to pay for a good game to make it a commercial success. It has worked for the last 30 years and will continue to do so.

Besides, people don’t all think the same way. Most people don’t even like video games.

#43

Gentle reminder.

Masked swearing is still swearing, don’t do it.
Personal attacks are unnecessary.
I know this topic ignites all kinds of emotions but please keep it civil.

:cookie:

1 Like
#44

Theft is wrong because it takes something away from someone else. If I steal your car, you no longer have a car. The piracy equivalent would be if I took bunch of car parts and built a copy of your car myself - in that scenario, you still have a car.

Now that would be counterfeiting. Counterfeiting is wrong because they dishonestly exchange the fake product for money or a real product, ie. fraud. If I sold my copied car without disclosing that I built it myself, that’s counterfeiting.

But… if I built that car myself, and only used it for myself… how is that wrong?
“As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours.” - Bill Gates

#45

Not everyone is able to build their own “Car” Most are getting the fake product from someone else.

#46

Some games like Game Dev Tycoon to me I think could be pirated 100% and still make a lot of money if they plan ahead.

Imagine if the character in the game was drinking out of a coffee mug with the Greenheart logo that a pirate could buy a real physical version off of the site for a good profit for Greenheart.

They could do the same with the mouse-pads, the posters, or even a bobble head of a character if they wanted to add that to the game and basically anything else they wanted to add.

So even if they don’t make the money off a game sale a game company would make money off of sales of collectables and items made popular because of their brand.

#47

You’re lovely. I like you. :smile:

#48

This is true. Selling physical merchandise is a fantastic way to make money from pirates. Officially licensed Minecraft items such as the hoodies, foam picks and whatnot make a huge amount of money for Mojang.

However, Game Developers are inherently lazy. The thought of doing physical, manual work actually scares them and makes them sick. They would prefer just to create a digital product and watch it sell.

You know how in Game Dev Tycoon the main guy never actually gets up from his chair? That is a remarkably accurate depiction of a game developer in real life. If they can’t do it with a keyboard and mouse, they just aren’t interested.

The idea of designing an actual, physical product, sorting out warehousing, deliveries, packaging, logistics, returns, breakages etc, all that physical stuff, absolutely terrifies them. They can’t cope with it. This is why so few games ship with anything other than a tiny instruction manual, and limited editions with mugs and mousemats etc tend to be very limited. Any special features these days tend to be digital, rather than physical.

This is also why digital distribution platforms such as the Windows Store, Apple’s App Store and Steam tend to be wildly popular with game developers. They don’t even have to worry about putting a game in a box, it’s all digital!

Personally, I think games would be a hell of a lot more profitable if they came with some physical merch, and you could buy more merch online. Imagine how successful a game could be if you could unlock things to buy. Like you could only order a certain T Shirt if you had 100% completed every objective or something.

#49

I think you’re dead wrong about that. Most people know how to download a pirate game by themselves, or at least have a friend that can help them for free. A very small minority of people actually pay for pirated games.

I totally disagree with people selling pirated software, even if they do charge much less than a genuine copy. That is going a bit further than making an unauthorised copy, that is going all the way to Bootlegging, which genuinely does take money out of the hands of developers and into your own.

This was a much bigger problem before everyone had their own broadband connection and DVD writer however. I always used to see shady market stalls selling pirated movies and games on DVD-R, but these days the same people are trading genuine used games and selling other stuff like installing modchips for consoles and performing firmware unlocks for mobile phones. When I ask them why they don’t sell the dodgy games any more they tell me “because people just download themselves these days”.

#50

I meant cracking games themselves…

About the merchandise… How would you propose that a new developer that did not get that massive hit Mojang had, sell merchandise to people that did not even care ( in Greenhearts case ) to pay $8 for the game itself.

Different approach.
If i would make perfect replica’s of any merchandise a game company is selling in order to make money and not go bankrupt.
But i would sell these items for 50% or less. Making their merchandise sales go down by a lot.
Is that not somewhat the same how game piracy works?

The idea that game developers should open a souvenirshop just to make some money is ridiculous.
They make games and not merchandise…

#51

I’ll have to admit, I was once a pirate. But seriously, its not like you think (or maybe it is). But I first played an Android game called “Game Dev Story” by Kairosoft. It was a really fun game, but i never got to get the full game. Always wished for a PC version of the game. Then I found out about Bluestacks, and continued to play that demo. Its really buggy on Bluestacks, and not quite the same. Then one day after doing a “Game Dev PC Version” search, I found this game. I immediately downloaded and played the demo, over and over. Then I found the article about the “Piracy Bug” and was all like, “Ha ha that’s hilarious, I need to find this ‘Pirate’ version.” So I downloaded it just to experience the bug. I felt it was more of a feature than anything. So after suffering a terrible fate (multiple times) to piracy, I bought the game. Greatest “Tycoon” game I’ve played in a while. That said, have the guys at Greenheart ever heard of “Grand Prix Story,” made by Kairosoft (Android, IPhone game)? It would be cool if a PC version of that game got made (hint, hint).

#52

I saw it on youtube…a youtuber (ZeRoyalViking) was starting a play through and I pretty much immediately bought the game…and I’m so happy I did… xD

#53

Merchandise is physical and in the case of GDT the game is based in an office so a bit of it could be things people actually need in an office.Then there are collectors that well don’t want the fake stuff.

[quote=“JayCheetah, post:50, topic:4786”]
The idea that game developers should open a souvenirshop just to make some money is ridiculous.
They make games and not merchandise…
[/quote]Many many businesses do it and in the case of game companies it is a way to keep a cash flow so they don’t go broke and to make money from pirates and more money from legit buyers of the game without being a jerk to either.

Keep in mind too that they would be getting paid to have people advertise their games with the merchandise.

#54

A clean forum, very nice; thank you.

2 Likes
#55

I personally bought the game once I saw it was DRM Free directly from Greenheart Games.

I try hard to support DRM free gaming with my hard earned money.

I support Greenheart Games as it appears it does not view its user base as casual pirates; real or imagined.

I will keep supporting this DRM free work with part of my livelihood.

#56

Yes. Once it goes on Steam I feel the game will gain even more success and exposure, those naughty pirates have helped to spread the word and vote for it on Greenlight etc, I really don’t think he has much to complain about.

Patrick needs to be careful and tone down the rhetoric a little I think. He’s got a very commercially successful game on his hands, which is “inspired” by a much less successful Android game. Nearly all of the ideas in the game are “pirated” ideas. People in glass houses should know when to stop throwing stones…

#57

Why is that ridiculous? Games make money without physical merch, I’m simply suggesting a way they can make even more. If they’re so upset by piracy, make some stuff which cannot be pirated.

Very few people respect digital products as actual “property”, which is why most of us choose not to pay for it. Everyone respects physical products as “property”, and the profit margins on branded official merchandise are very good.

You will find it easier to sell a T-shirt or mug than a collection of bytes.

Personally, I download all of my music from pirate sites. I haven’t bought a CD in about 10 years. I support the bands I like by going to their concerts (physical performance), buying T-shirts and posters etc (physical merchandice). The bands get a lot more money from me this way than if I just bought their CDs, and I get a lot more value for my money, great memories and some physical goods which I can wear or use, rather than a useless CD which I would just rip to iTunes and sit on a shelf gathering dust.

This is the new economy, friend.

#58

You fail to realise ( again ) that merchandise does not always sell.
Only a few game companies have aquired a status that their players ( pirates or real fans ) are willing to buy something to wear or drink their coffee from.

As for musicans, they already been paid by sponsors and their record company for doing a concert to promote the latest album ( most of them ) All income from concerts end up in the pockets of the record companies and sponsors.
Buying their CD, will in most cases provide the artist with the % they agreed upon signing their contract.
You might be wearing T-shirts of your favorite band, which they never got any money from since they might not be official merchandise, but simply a “pirated” version.

Funny how you didnt replied on this.

#59

Agreed, but it does sell more often than it doesn’t, and there’s no reason to assume that Game Dev Tycoon merch would not sell.

I personally bought quite a lot of Streetfighter 2 merch over the years, even though I’ve never paid for that game, always just pirated it, so Capcom got some money out of me I guess, and I got some cool little things that I still have today. At least it’s one way of making pirates pay. There’s very little risk associated with making a mug, and actually coffee mugs feature quite heavily in Game Dev Tycoon so it would be a great fit.

You clearly don’t know how the music industry works, so I’m not going to spend a lot of time dismissing your spiel about record label sponsorship and concert sales etc, because it’s just completely wrong. I will just say this: I have a few friends who are professional musicians;

A couple of them are in a “Traditional” band and they have been signed to a major label. They made quite a lot of money from their first album deal, but for their 2nd and 3rd albums they made a lot more playing concerts touring and selling shirts than from CD sales. They also make more from PRS royalties than they do from CD sales.

One of my friends is a “Modern” music producer. He makes a lot of music himself and gives it away for free on his SoundCloud and Youtube. He makes money by performing at concerts & festivals, selling merch and doing remixes for other artists. He also has a modest income as a Youtube partner. He makes more money than the “traditional” band does, and it is not split with any record label. He does pay an agency for a publicist and manager, but nothing like as much as a record label charges for those services.

The old ways are dying, the new ways are better for everyone and there does not need to be a “label” for music or “publisher” for games any more, we simply don’t need them, and we don’t need their old ideas of how to make money.

Ok… This is more than simple digital copyright infringement at this point however, this is producing counterfeit goods, which is a lot easier to put a stop to. But sure, lets say you were able to get away with this…

It is the same yes, it’s the same in that counterfeits being available does not really diminish sales of the originals. A pirated game being available does not reduce the sales of non-pirated version.

People are aware that you can buy a fake Rolex these days that is pretty much identical to the original, at least to the untrained eye. The copies have only been this good for about 5 years, yet Rolex sales continue to rise year on year. The people who would buy a fake one are not the same as the people who would buy a real one.

It’s simply not the case that a cheaper, counterfeit alternative being available impacts sales of the genuine article. If anything, more people wearing Rolexes, real or fake, makes more people want one.

So your assertion that fake Game Dev Tycoon mugs being available would make sales of the genuine mugs “go down by a lot” is simply false.

People will buy the merch directly from the Greenheart Games website because they want to support the game and they think it’s cute, not because they want the cheapest merch they can possibly get.

#60

Well i had some thoughts about it and i changed my position about piracy.

I want to get a get on the free ride as well.
If there will be something to buy on the ride, I might if not then it’s not my fault.

@Charlie
When will the first Greenheart Merchandise be available?
Since i already paid for the game i will most likely save my money to buy something from a developer which game i will pirate.