Concerning Piracy and the $8 Argument

Greenheart Games
#1

Hi,

I don’t and can’t fully agree on your perspective on piracy and a $8 game. I can’t agree, because there are some issues you seem to ignore. $8 for an unknown game from an unknown studio… If you would buy all interesting looking games in hopes of finding a single good one you would have to buy 8-10 games at least. And on the long run you would pay well over $60 for them. Would that single good indie game worth this much investment? I doubt it. Most of them wouldn’t.

We can discuss about how your game doesn’t look good enough for me. Not even for $8. In fact if it would be offered for $1 in a store, I wouldn’t think it is good enough. Simply because from a tycoon game I would expect much more business simulation, much more important decisions. Your game is far too simple for me to consider it as a tycoon game, and far too long to consider it as a proper casual game (the kind you play for a few moments on your cellphone). But the point is: Even if it would worth $8 to me, I wouldn’t buy it for $8. Why? Because out of 8 purchases, I would be disappointed 7 times. To spend 8$ in 8 attempts on a game that has $8 value to me, I should spend 1$ 8 times. Not 8USD 8 times.

And what is a $8 game to me? As you see you can’t always play all the games as soon as they are released, so picking up a few titles months or years after their original release date would make sense. I am sure, you understand that the price of a GTA complete edition costs less than $8 and it is better value, and doesn’t come with a significant risk of “unpleasant surprises”. Your game costs more than Skyrim, or than some of the better Mass Effect games, etc.

To me: Even if your game would be a good tycoon game and not a huge disappointment, it isn’t an AAA game, and isn’t comparable with the named games, yet it costs more. But it also pretends to be a normal tycoon game, yet it is more like the “restaurant empire” and other casual games for secretaries, so it would be a disappointment.

And if it is “just looks a bit interesting, so why shouldn’t we try it” situation, then you can’t expect 8$.

Your game is an indie game, you can keep developing it, and can fix the issues and come up with a 2.0 version. And with some reputation AND by listening to suggestions the value of your game can improve.

#2

No offense, but this is just silly.

You download the demo, and if you like the game you buy it. That makes your ENTIRE post unjustifiable, because there is a demo. If you get disappointed by the full game, we others didn’t.

9 Likes
#3

Ahem, 2 people made this game

1 Like
#4

“I don’t like it please give it to me for free.” Just wait till you get it in a bundle or a steam sale if you want to try it, if you know it isn’t worth your time, why not just forget about the game and move on?

2 Likes
#5

Let me give you a challenge:
Get yourself, and a basic game developer
Develop a game like GDT
Make it successful as GDT

(In real life)

This challenge should explain

#6

Not sure, but i think he was referring to GHG as a company

#7

Stian: If you don’t want to think, that is up to you. No one forces you to use your brain, and I am sure you enjoy simple games because you don’t like to use it much. But the demo doesn’t change much there, in fact it doesn’t change anything at all.

No one cares about the demo. Why? If it isn’t good enough based on the first videos, etc. to spend $8 on it, it isn’t good enough to spend $8 worth of time to give it a second chance. At that time the game lost me as a potential customer. No I won’t pirate it. Hey, if the developer would give it away for free, I still wouldn’t care. Why? Because the game doesn’t worth my time either. And a lot of indie games are half finished. And remain half finished for ages. A demo can be the single working part of the game, so the question about trust and risks stays.

And at 8USD price tag, where there are very good deals for many other games I think before buy. And there will be better deals than game dev tycoon.

At $4.99? A lot of people would say, it is cheaper than some wine / beer / cigarette / etc. And with this people act impulsively and if the game is interesting (first impression counts) they buy it even if they won’t play it. Guess how many games ended up in my steam library this way? Or on gog…I have bought a lot of games I haven’t even started. And I am sure most of people here have such experiences.

For $8 Game Dev Tycoon is a bad deal. If I compare its price / value ratio to a GTA complete pack, etc. it is bad… It wouldn’t worth $1.

At $4.99? It is another impulsive purchase for an interesting looking game.

At $1.99? Well a fellow gamer asked for a beer, etc. when he tries to develop games and brighten my day. If I can afford, I would buy games this way even if I know the game isn’t even interesting.

1 Like
#8

You guys realize it’s bait, right?

#9

Yes. It is referring to GHG as company. As they are the ones who sell the game at a specific price, they had an argument where they thought it will increase sales. In fact it reduces sales. And probably reduced total income as well.

1 Like
#10

You say your comment is bait? Yes I recognize that.

Otherwise: A company hoped that $8 price tag would increase sales. It wouldn’t.

Why? Because at 8$ most people think about purchase compare price with value and compare the deal with other deals. And there are better deals. And of course when people hit “games under $5” button on Steam, your game won’t be visible at all, so a lot of people who look for cheap games won’t even see your title. And a lot of similar games are risky purchases.

At $4.99 the same people act impulsively and buys products without much hesitation etc.

1 Like
#11

So? This game best days have passed, they trying to get some last bucks so they don’t need to worry that much about budget while making next game. It is really that bad thing? If people would buy it “cuz it’s cheap” GHG would get money, but people wouldn’t play it, so they wouldn’t be interested in sequel, which in long run would be less lucrative. I know GHG isn’t all about money, but this is one of examples short enough to post from phone (touch screen keyboard is really bad).

1 Like
#12

You claim there is a challenge in that. But what would you call “a game like GDT”? Probably if the game is about different topics, different complexity, different price point, entirely different market, then it wouldn’t be a “game like GDT”. But if I would repeat the same mistakes as the developers of GDT, it wouldn’t be any better, due to these mistakes. And that is where the issue is.

As I have only checked videos, screenshots, etc. about GDT, I could only tell you how would I make very different decisions and you are free to see if you like it or not. A lot of important games in history started with a simple desire: A nerd wanted to play a certain kind of game, it wasn’t on the market, and started to implement it. If they were succesful, the same desire was popular and the game ran well on the target platform, it was the key to massive success. So I would focus a bit on different characters with different talents that can make game dev studios successful at various times.

Once we see the characters and strengths we should also see challenges and scenarios when you have to make important decisions. Creating a game is almost always an investment. Visual Studio isn’t free (if we speak about Windows development). PCs can have compatibility issues and support costs. But getting your game to XBOX Live Arcade: Independent Games wasn’t free (around 100$/year or so if I remember correctly) so even when you plan a game there are challenges. Of course different platforms have different audiences, so different genrees are popular on them. And it innfluences how long your game should be…

You know: “Windows phone isn’t a big platform, but as it is new, and only has a few games, your game would be visible and as the platform grows you can be a famous developer on that platform, but android and ios is out for some time…” I remember these questions from WP 7 and early WP 8 times. Deadlines… And how market would change around your project with time. See Duke Nukem Forever. R&D… And when your desires and R&D would propose several games choosing the best ones. Accidental ideas, like a “level editor turned into Sim City” and decisions you have to make when something unexpected happens.

Want some stock art? Game developer licence for some DAZ products costs like $500 but you don’t need it if you only use pre-rendered art in the game and don’t add the 3D models. Carrara a cheap modelling tool (easy to export models to game engines) isn’t free either, and most people don’t have money to buy Max. And once you invest a lot you want to monetize the game. In game advertisement (including product placement)? Selling the game? Selling the engine? Freemium? Open Source with donations? Or it is just a project for better grades in univeristy?

Selling points and price points? PEGI ratings… Various options to attract a bigger audience. Support and reputation, etc. Also while your marketing and Q&A guys are busy with a game, you can already work on another. And have yet another in planning stages…Managing crew and budget…

Game development isn’t about “writing one game after the other since the 8 bit era”. It is about the various little challenges you face with each and every little game. When I was young, almost everyone around me had a Commodore 64. I had an XT. Sadly it had no games on it. And in Hungary it was pretty hard to buy any… But I got it from someone with some preinstalled software. Namely an old version of Turbo Pascal. And of course DOS came with gwbasic.

And there were some books, etc. with some games written in basic for other computers, so it would be wise to port them… And then improve them. I learned that backward compatibility is impotant the hard way…

1 Like
#13

Your original post is exactly the same argument as many pirates used before. I pirate because I want to try a game.

It’s just one of a number of frequent excuses provided by pirates to justify the fact that they are consuming a product for free.

The fact that we offer a DEMO is conveniently ignored and even if we point it out, those who use the excuse just jump to the next convenient justification.

In your case, it seems to be the I pirate, because the product isn’t good enough. which I think is the saddest of them all.

Does a game have to be perfect before the creators are allowed to make money from it?

If yes, then I wonder how any game developer could survive long enough to hone their skills enough in order to create this perfect game…

If you don’t like our game enough, then don’t play it. We have no obligation to serve the least interested customer by dumping our game on the market for next to nothing.

1 Like
#14

Its best days are passed. But the $8 argument was from the time the game was new. GHG is probably either working on something now and they want to sell that game. And I am sure that marketing the next game can be harder. Their trick with the “fake cracked version” hits the news, and it is still often mentioned in various blog posts and articles. Getting people to notice their next game might be much, much harder.

That is why they should learn from mistakes made with GDT.

1 Like
#15

Before this topic explodes I will interject and say that I didn’t realize that your argument wasn’t so much about piracy (as the title suggested) but simply about the price.

Let’s just say that I disagree with your opinion. I think GDT is fairly priced.

#16

PartickKlug: Have I said anything about pirating? No. Have I accused you with a crime you didn’t commit? No. Have I resorted to such personal attacks? No. I don’t like your game. And I don’t play it. In fact I don’t even try it. As you see I only name issues visible in media without even trying the game. Since when that implies piracy? And if you attack people who try to help you by raising points by accusing them this way… Maybe they wouldn’t want to touch your future games even if your next title would be interesting. So I would tone down the attacks.

As you know attacks can go both ways. And when see that the game “tries to look” like a complex business simulation, yet even first screenshots show it is far from it… I could assume you act in bad faith and hope to deceive customers. And say people feel buying independent games as risky because of the likes of you. But I came here in good faith, and thought you found game development an interesting topic, wrote your game, you are inexperienced and tried to sell it. Mistakes by new developers are natural. Being offensive if anyone comes to discuss them aren’t.

You aren’t obliged to serve me anything at any price. But I am not obliged to buy any products from you if I don’t like them, or if they don’t worth the price. In fact I am not obliged to buy any products from you if I don’t like you. And when such new products are discussed I am free to express my concerns on other places right in front of potential customers. It doesn’t mean I would pirate them. It means: I have not enough time to play the games I bought so I don’t buy, don’t download and don’t play games that aren’t good enough. But it also means it pays to keep things civilized.

There are many different ways to make money from a game. And choosing the right price, and the right way to monetize a game is a significant decision. Luckily as an independent developer you could always go back to an earlier game and update it to make it a good candidate for other people, who right now don’t see it good enough. So if there is anything in the way of selling more you can adjust the price, add options to gameplay, etc. and hope to make more money.

For $8 we can get Skyrim, GTAs, etc. and many games some players have missed. And we expect a good game. And can say even 8 games like GDT would bring less entertainment home than some of those $8 bundles, etc. And if the game doesn’t look good enough from the first few screenshots and videos we won’t want to play it, and we won’t want to try or buy it. If we don’t want to try it: we don’t pirate it, but we don’t download the demo either. But for $5? Okay, it is cheaper than eating at McDonalds, a lot of people would buy it, even if they don’t have time to play it. And selling X copies for $8 each is 8X USD income. Selling 10X copies for 5USD each is 50X USD income.

This is why marketing people seek prices where people act as impulsive beings and buy stuff without much thinking.

20000 people pirating your game if you have sold 300 copies for $8 each is a tragedy (2400$ income doesn’t cover the dev cost + taxes). 40000 people pirating the same game if you have sold 60000 for $5 is annoyance ($300k income), but it isn’t a devastating blow. 100000 pirating if you sold 500000 copies for 5$ each (2.5 million)? Let them have it. See the point?

And why DEMO isn’t important? Because for an unfinished game (and I can name at least 8 unfinished games I bought) the demo can come from the working and “finished” part… We would be surprised by the rest.

1 Like
#17

As I said, I misread your earlier message thinking that you were trying to justify piracy. Clearly that wasn’t the case. Please excuse the tone of my initial reply, it was misdirected.

#18

Okay, I see :slight_smile:

Let me put things in perspective. You posted a blog post about initial days of release with sales and pirated numbers. As I not only buy independent games often, but was on the developer side as well, I pointed out that your argument about the incident is flawed because you expected that the $8 price and reasoning would work…

My point is: Number of pirates are irrelevant. Number of people who buy the game is important, and it depends massively on a lot of factors.

Independent games compete with older AAA titles, and often they don’t have a very fair chance against big titles like GTA or Elder Scrolls, or… Only a few indy developers want to compete directly with AAA titles. But they are usually iin the $40+ price range. Elite: Dangerous is one. Eador series… Galactic Civilizations from Stardock was one, etc.

And sadly with or without demos customers are burned often.

So it is almost impossible to name a fair price. $8 for “more than 16 hours of fun” and your hard work feels fair. $8 for a game that provides less than 1/8th fun as some steam key bundles with AAA titles you get for $8? That doesn’t seem fair. You can’t name a price that is fair for both side. So the moment you use a price tag that isn’t low enough for customers to buy at without thinking in an argument you lose the argument, as customer sees better deals.

But you can name a price where customers are impulsive and buy your game anyway.

You don’t have to. But you can try to.

And for an independent developer there is an easy way: People can pirate software, but it is much harder to pirate services. And it isn’t only about online games. Support, working your customers to improve their gaming experience, etc. is important. It is important. Ohh, and I would also sell merchandise.

2 Likes
#19

Probably you forgot about the old blog post. :slight_smile:

I know you focus on single player experience. But I am sure you also know a lot of developers make a living from selling in game items in online games. They keep the price so low that a lot of people don’t even think before buying it, and once they bought the item and feel some reward they can get addicted to buying stuff. And spend $0.50 on the software 80 times a month, but wouldn’t buy a game for $40.

I know a lot of independent developers keep the games updated. And when I heard about your game again, I hoped to check “release notes” to see if your game actually improved much, or the reasons why I wouldn’t buy it stay. So checked the page and seen your view on piracy.

My view on piracy is twofold. It is bad that piracy is widespread and a lot of people wouldn’t even consider buying games / software / art / ebooks / etc. But if they are pirates, I am happy if they pirate something I created / helped to create, because even if they aren’t potential customers, their positive comments about the product I am trying to sell is valuable word of mouth advertisement. And I got it for free. I am sure you heard when Bill Gates spoke in similar fashion.

So I seen the problem in your post as: even if you tried to talk with them, this word of mouth advertisement didn’t attract enough customers. And the question I asked myself was why? 20000 players trying your game, probably half of them speaking about the game with friends. 10.000 people “advertising” the game to friends, and with Facebook, forums, etc. each such “advertisement” can reach 10 people on average. From that huge crowd only a very few bought the game, and even with widespread mainstream media attention you didn’t became the “next big hit” (like Stardock who can work on AAA games). What went wrong? Where and how you lost these potential customers?

And seen $8 is an odd price. $4.99 and $9.99 are both far more common :slight_smile: And what I have learned about prices and marketing. And started thinking how the $8 argument would have affected me, and how this could influence most of the talk about the game?

1 Like
#20

Personally I’d much rather sell a 8$ game, than make a free game that sells you in-app purchases. Clearly there is an argument for both but personally I’d rather focus on higher priced games, than contribute to the race to the bottom.

2 Likes