In regards to your Piracy 'joke' - Followup requested


#41

I understand where you’re coming from. It absolutely sucks to purchase a game and have it be a complete waste of money that you can’t get back. I’ve been in that boat before, and back when I was younger, every dollar counted. Renting games is another thing, entirely. You’re actually supporting the company that rents games to you, which I think is a good thing.

That being said, this is a digital world. Read a few reviews - I try to read one bad, one good, and one in-between. Talk to any friends that have it. Play a demo if there is one. Heck, play it at a friend’s if they have a copy. Borrow one if it’s possible. And speak with your wallet; if you buy a good game, buy more from the company. If you find that you’ve bought a bad game, think twice about buying another from them. And remember, even if a $50 game gives you only about 5 hours of entertainment, that’s $10 per hour, which is more than most movies.

In short, know what you’re getting into before you buy a game or be prepared for the possibility that you might have wasted some money. And if you don’t like a game you bought, let that guide your future purchases.


#42

Edited for Vulgar Language - Charlie

Creator Take Risk to invest time/money on a products before selling.
Buyer Take Risk to buy a Products that havnt use before.
This is Fair world.

According you - Ricky Mason ,
Stealing Digital Goods = Not Stealing
Stealing Digital Good = Actually Helping the Content Creators

Imagine everybody adopt your theory… no more games/music/movie on earth.

A person who unable to think before speak.
Low-class.


#43

I think Thndr has made some really good points, so I recommend going back and reading them. In fact, I suggest reading any of the points made in this thread, since it quite obvious you have no understanding of the topic at hand.

I personally am not advocating pirating, I’m just bringing up the possibility that it doesn’t do as much harm as the industry tries to make us believe. I.E the consumer would never have purchased it to begin with. Or, that gaining a fan is far more valuable than the loss of one ‘digital’ sale.


#44

I’m not sure if anyone said it yet but if I made a game I’de rather it be pirated and have 1mil people that know about it than not be pirated with only 100k people that know about it.

The reason for this is when Christmas comes around in the US it counts towards a huge part of the sales in retail stores for the entire year so with 1mil people knowing about the game that would be how many people that may each be considering buying multiple copies of the game for gifts and with Gifts nobody wants to give or receive something pirated.One person that pirated an $8 game for themselves could easily give out 10 legit versions or so as Gifts for a game they are a fan of.

There are also Birthdays maybe an anniversary or other Holidays that follow that too it is like natural Anti-Piracy.


#45

There was a comment way up there about piracy improving sales because it gets more publicity, blah blah, green heart should make games but they shouldn’t expect a profit, etc etc. But I can’t find that again, so I can’t formally respond to it. But whoever it was who said that, here’s the problem; If Greenheart Games don’t make a profit, they can’t make games, and we don’t get more games as great as Game Dev Tycoon. Simple as that.


#46

no. its not ‘simple as that.’

The only people who think anything is ‘simple’ are those who don’t bother thinking about it.


#47

Interesting points on both sides, how about looking at it through a different perspective?


#48

Not necessarily. This is simple. Pirating is getting the game for free. When you get the game for free, that means you aren’t paying for it. When you aren’t paying for it, the developer isn’t making money. Do YOU see any error here?


#49

if you weren’t going to buy it regardless, then the developer isn’t losing anything. They are only potentially gaining a sale, or in the very least, gaining a fan, which will get them money on their next game.

I’m never was advocating for pirating. I fully support all players supporting games they like, and are able to enjoy. But, I also fully support getting what you pay for. And its impossible to guarantee quality on a game you haven’t played.


#50

But if the pirater pirated the first game, what’s to keep them from pirating the second one? And even if they do tell their friends about the game, what’s to keep their friends from pirating it? I honestly cannot see a justifiable reason to pirate, besides the reasons in the video above. And honestly, if you can afford a computer to play to game on, why can’t you spare EIGHT DOLLARS for the actual game? It isn’t going to break you.

And how can you guarantee the quality of the game? Play the FREE DEMO for the game, which is provided RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU on the front page of this website.


#51

Don’t start trash talking those who oppose you on this issue. Analyze their reasoning and YOU think before speaking. I agree with you on your first point, but I also believe that no one is idiotic enough to make the reasoning, “Stealing Digital Goods = Not Stealing.” Ricky has a much more complex thought train on this, so I assume, and so you should take various things like that into consideration before replying.


#52

Great video. I feel like it really sums up the issue. There’s a lot of good reasoning in there.


#53

But if you’re a pirater of the game and you want to share it with others, why wouldn’t you simply show them where to get the pirated copy?


#54

No disrespect to OP but it looks to me like the best way to promote a new security system is to burgle a few houses?

Facts.
Something as benign as stealing a loaf of bread, even for a starving family, is theft and we could argue the moral high ground until our ears bleed. But a judge in a bad mood can call the law as it stands and bingo, jail time.

Let’s extend to discretionary items. Try taking a copy of Monopoly from your local game store and then tell the judge how it helps to sell copies of Monopoly. Result?

Try to steal a book from a library. Tell the judge the author will thank you for your efforts and see how you go. Result?

So what about the digital versions of same?

Seriously, piracy is a problem largely accepted and expected because of the inability to enforce. We should not begin to accept it as “a necessary evil” nor try to excuse, justify or explain - it’s poor moral judgement at best and plainly theft in practice.

Unfortunately, we are simply adding to the “indecision” by debating what piracy is and it will do no more than promote an unhealthy future for software. We should not even begin to justify it or position or mislead people into believing “it’s OK”.

Net result when we do it to expect greater DRM controls and Big Brother to become stronger and far more invasive and usually, the ones who get hit hardest by DRM etc. are the people who pay. The wrong target.

We need to shift this “piracy debate” to one simple line and clarify these implied justifications and excuses once and for all. It is not a moral debate - never was and never should be.

Piracy. Just say NO.


#55

If they were gonna pirate it you wouldn’t have to show them or maybe you just want to buy them the console version of a game or maybe they want a version they can play against people online with.There are also times when a Grandmother or someone that doesn’t play games wants advice on what to buy for a gift and if the person that they ask doesn’t know about the game they can’t tell them about it.There are also times when people buy games for little kids and such.


#56

This argument is flawed without a clearer definition of “quality”. imho, the quality of product versus suitability of product are 2 different arguments.

You cannot watch a movie at the local cinema and then ask for your money back if you didn’t like it. You can however seek your money back if the projector broke down.

One is a question of taste. The other is one of fault and is usually rectifiable by law, by the devs/publisher or at worst, the demise of the devs/publisher from bad reviews. The cream ultimately rises to the top in these scenarios.

One thing that bemuses me with piracy advocates when I hear this argument - they have conveniently ignored the fact that the very same methodologies used to steal the software can also be used to learn about the software suitability (feedback, demos etc.) prior to purchase. The argument is moot.

Such justification for “testing quality by way of theft” is plainly wrong, if it weren’t, I could legitimately steal a pizza and test it without paying when in fact what we do is pay for the pizza and if we don’t like it we seek a remake or refund.

Or we simply never go back to the pizza shop and tell all our friends not to as well.

And these days, Caveat Emptor is far more applicable in the digital arena than it ever was before. Devs and publishers are extremely cognisant of this and imho, will never deliberately set out to annoy their fan base. That alone should provide some comfort in that what you buy is fit for purpose.

Whether you “enjoy” what you buy is outside the scope of the debate because it’s fairly easy to determine pre-purchase - usually by simply waiting, reading and considering…


#57

the whole point of my post was to consider that gaming companies need to adapt business strategies to deal with changing times.

Your comparison of piracy and watching a movie is lacking in specifics. I am not force to pay 12 dollars to watch a movie in a theater. In fact, they allow you to wait till its on cable, or netflix, or even on network tv where I can watch it for absolutely no cost.

They do this buy applying different business practices. The same thing gaming companies are doing with subscription gaming or free to play with stores.

Would you play The last of us if after every major scene a commercial popped up? I would consider it. Again, the main point here whether piracy is right or wrong, but that its unavoidable and businesses need to cope instead of screaming that its ruining their business when in reality, its the crappy games they produce thats ruining their business.


#58

My movie analogy fits perfectly because I am putting a clear delineation between suitability (did you like it) versus did it work (fit for purpose). Hence, no refund for the former and yes refund for the latter (the broken projector).

Otherwise you are advocating that you wish to see the movie first and will pay only if 1) the projector worked and 2) if you liked it. Pretty easy to see why that isn’t going to work. Movie houses would go under very quickly.

Software has only been “exempted” from this hypothetical simply because it is too easy to pirate, not because we suddenly need to be more consumer wary or overly suspicious and therefore require a method of “testing” to compensate.

Look, I totally understand that the very same reasons we might want to “test” software prior to purchase is because of a generally accepted “no refund” policy if it is a bad product. It’s simply too hard (or too expensive) to enforce our legal rights.

And I have raised this topic before on another forum that the biggest issue is because EULA’s and T&C’s about refunds for faulty software have never been tested. We accept the legal wording because 1) we don’t understand it, 2) it’s too long and 3) we’re in a hurry.

If a precedent can be set whereby a publishing house was forced to refund due to faulty product then the whole game industry would change overnight.

The onus is on us as consumers to not accept faulty product in the first place and to test the law insofar as requiring product to be fit for purpose. And yet we blindly page down our EULA’s, click Accept and pay the penalty if we got it wrong.

What if, just once, users got together and actually refused to purchase a game because the T&C’s/license/EULA was biased/unfair/unreasonable? Make it public, make a noise, spread the word. The concept and content of agreements will change very quickly. But we don’t do we?

We ignore our own due diligence and shift the focus and reasoning back to the software house being “at fault” to justify our pirating.

Do software houses need to change business strategies because of it? No, they don’t and nor should they. Piracy is stealing, pure and simple and the law stands the world over on theft as a criminal offense. The onus is on us, as consumers to promote and demand an environment where it is neither tolerated nor acceptable and any attempt to “justify” is simply obfuscating simple fact.

Your argument that software houses screaming that piracy is “ruining their business” is flawed.

A software house “screaming” they are going under for any reason is actually quite irrelevant. What of it? No-one claims responsibility for their own failings, why should they? If it’s bad business practices, so be it. Fail… Who cares? They can scream all they like. If they fail due to bad product they are no different to any other business the world over.

But perhaps your argument relates more to the fact that the “screaming” has been their justification for DRM and piracy prevention tools/methodologies?

But think. They must be correct in their assumptions because if piracy was NOT an issue, why would they need to do it? Why go to the expense? Why risk the backlash? Absolutely no point in DRM if piracy is NOT an issue is it?

Businesses must identify risk, perceived or otherwise, and deploy methods to mitigate that risk. The effects of to do/not to do can’t be calculated. It simply can’t.

(a bit like the Y2K “bug” being called a farce when nothing happened. Most code cutters know damn well it’s because of the work they did to prevent it - I know, I was one of them).

I even saw an argument here that piracy is not theft “in the classical sense” because nothing is “physically stolen”. So why is not paying for a ride in a taxi a criminal offense? Sneaking into a game, a movie or public transport? Pffft… A moot point if ever.

Pirates “do what they do” to “protect their rights” while insisting that software houses should not expect payment (or must change THEIR business practices) so we can test the item we intend to purchase.

DRM and it’s associated evils become a self-fulfilling prophecy and I made that point. The difference here is that large publishing houses have the power to bring the change.

We do too. We just don’t or won’t use it.

Ultimately, we are claiming that piracy is a “necessary” action and paying for it is now neither a moral or even an legal obligation.

And yet the problem is one of patience and our haste to get into quickplay mode without doing the homework neccessary prior to purchase.

And ultimately we then blame the source of the supply and not the source of the demand as the reason for the ills they bring upon us.

We have made our bed…


#59

are you trying to prove you took a debate class? or that businesses dont need to adapt to a changing digital environment?

wasn’t drinking alcohol considered illegal at a point in our history? Or I guess because its against the law it makes perfect sense.

I even saw an argument here that piracy is not theft “in the classical sense” because nothing is “physically stolen”. So why is not paying for a ride in a taxi a criminal offense? Sneaking into a game, a movie or public transport? Pffft… A moot point if ever.

if you ride in a taxi you are stealing the gas and time that the taxi driver could actually be making money.

Sneaking into a game…its only illegal because they can be assured that they don’t get in thanks to those special rotating doors and security guards. It’s proven to work.

Sneaking into a movie I would definitely put on par with pirating a game. But again, its easier to catch someone. “Do you have a ticket? No? Then get out.” Do you see movie theaters searching for those movie goers who go from one movie to the next? No! Because it doesn’t hurt their sales and it cost more to pay that guy to walk around and check tickets.

Once again, and I stated this point already in more detail in one of my posts above: Piracy is going to happen. The business around it needs to change, and it has been: Free to Play, and subscription/server based gameplay models.


#60

Ditto on debate team. You’re being just as, shall we say, tenacious :slight_smile:

But in answer, yes they might change. No, they shouldn’t need to. This “digital environment” you speak of is not a sudden new phenomena. Software has been pirated since it was on 5 1/4 floppy disks. It’s just easier now due to torrent etc. It was not legal then and is not legal now. It was theft then, it is still theft now.

What has changed is a greater acceptance of piracy as “normal” and some even argue “morally” necessary. There are countless threads and argument justifying it’s existence, none of which hold water but are read by many and this may have a bearing on the level of acceptance.

The impressionable young, the kind that go, “what? that’s illegal??” have a lower understanding of piracy because it’s just so easy. Nor do they have the experience in life to make the moral judgement required to understand why we MUST pay for software.

Offer a free Mars Bar and another next to it for $1.50 and they will always take the free one. If I put a sign up saying that Mars Bars will cease to exist if they take the free one will not change the outcome.

Unfortunately, and this was my primary point from the outset, we add confusion to the topic by debating it. We don’t “debate” if murder is good or bad, we just know it for what it is. Do we blame the gun user or do we blame the gun manufacturer for the murder? Do we expect the car makers to fit limiters because of the stupid element on our roads?

Same with “stealing” from a shop. Now we get “classical theft”, “not really theft” etc. etc.

Simply because the theft does not have a direct and attributable cost, it’s now being trumpeted as “OK theft”. When did that become the norm?

In short, WE are making the problem worse by suggesting piracy is “acceptable” because business should be doing something about it and they are not. Therefore it is either “not a problem” or “they don’t care” - neither of which is actually true.

Yes piracy will happen. No it shouldn’t and if the models you’re suggesting were the only option then the gaming community will be the poorer for it.

  1. There are countless issues with “always on”, from a logistics POV - some people just don’t have fast or good or stable connections.
  2. We need to ask whether reliability will be a factor. Ever tried to play a game with servers down?
  3. Then you have the requirement that the host must stay up and running down to the last man standing, and that is not going to happen either.
  4. It will kill off every indie developer on earth who cannot afford to 24/7 a cluster. This is a real case of being careful what we wish for here.

(Notwithstanding that if a game dev thinks operating a server based game platform is a cost effective way to combat piracy then they must have piracy data we are not privy to. Think about it… Are we about to see Napster V2?)

So we arrive back at the only real solution. STOP THE PIRATES.

  1. First we need to set the ground rules. Piracy is bad. Start at the social media level!!!
  2. We educate those that missed that message with a solid and clear warning.
  3. Then we prosecute. Hard and fast. No punitive measures required, just erase a hard drive or something. (or a SWAT team and choppers to scare the bejesus outta them will be fine too for all I care)

Jokes aside, even GDT offers a “warning” to pirates (ingame of course) and I use this option all the time. I think our RL devs will always prefer that option as do most devs worlwide. Litigation is just too costly and time consuming.

So in short, business does NOT and SHOULD not modify THEIR behaviour, they didn’t cause the problem. When they DO attempt to stop the issue they are slammed by the community for draconian measures etc.

Why don’t we just stop being dicks about it with sentence after sentence of lame suggesting the problem is one we are not responsible for??

It is not a difficult debate. Say NO to piracy. Start at home. Start at schools and work our way up the chain.

Not accepting the responsibility for creating the problem and pushing the onus back to business will be much, much worse. It will create an outcome none of us will want…

I do not want business dictating the service level I receive. And if business can’t do it, governments ultimately feel they must and we all lose. And I do not want government dictating the service level I receive either.

Start here. Start now. Piracy is bad and it’s our fault. Go on, say it…